[ The fact that she answers yes, that takes it instantly from an abstract, ambiguous maybe, into a totally different realm of actualization. Personal experience trumps the theoretical every time, for him, in situations like this. He doesn't trust the untested, not with his mind, not with his - well, his metaphorical heart. Obviously exceptions for the real one have been made.
And right now he doesn't even want to bunny trail off into 'what couldn't you look at', because he can't keep up with a conversation like that right now and doesn't feel like having one in the first place, and he's still working out how he does feel about the proposal she's just put forth. It's basically just terrifying, but he's sure there's more than that. There's got to be, because he's tired of doing this, and maybe she's right and maybe she's not but she has a decent point either way and that's one of the most dangerous places to be in. Grey, grey, grey, but someone's talking sense - it doesn't help you decide what you're going to do at all. ] How long did it take?
And right now he doesn't even want to bunny trail off into 'what couldn't you look at', because he can't keep up with a conversation like that right now and doesn't feel like having one in the first place, and he's still working out how he does feel about the proposal she's just put forth. It's basically just terrifying, but he's sure there's more than that. There's got to be, because he's tired of doing this, and maybe she's right and maybe she's not but she has a decent point either way and that's one of the most dangerous places to be in. Grey, grey, grey, but someone's talking sense - it doesn't help you decide what you're going to do at all. ] How long did it take?
So the point of the full nelson is immobilizing someone's upper body, which makes an elbow strike a little hard. But the most basic move is actually really similar to what you do for a chokehold. Lift the finger out and snap it, then hold the other hand on your neck as you turn so they can't remove it. [ Demonstrating. ] At that point you can either bend the elbow in and snap it or bend the arm itself in - a little further like this and it'll hurt quite a lot.
[ She rather thought it might help. Still, does that make it cheating? She doesn't want him to think that because it worked for her it will always work. He's not the type to blindly take one thing as truth for everything, but this sort of topic tends to put blinders on people and make them less certain.
Yeah, no, she's leaving things there vague on purpose. There's no need to go chasing specifics or otherwise mess with things. If they ever do have to have that conversation, it's not now. It would only muddy the waters now. ] It only took a few times to get over the worst of it. From there, it was a slow gradual climb upwards.
Yeah, no, she's leaving things there vague on purpose. There's no need to go chasing specifics or otherwise mess with things. If they ever do have to have that conversation, it's not now. It would only muddy the waters now. ] It only took a few times to get over the worst of it. From there, it was a slow gradual climb upwards.
[ It's kind of fun, watching Tony literally (and by that I mean figuratively) absorb information. Mostly in that you actually can sort of watch him do it. ] Uh, yeah, it's barely going that far as it is, so I would imagine that would suck. When you say snap the elbow, do you mean like, dislocate the joint, or more like breaking one or two of the three bones that connect to form it right above their respective epiphyses?
[ Maybe? But I doubt that even when/if he looks back at this moment that he'd consider it to be such. He's not dumb; he's totally aware that out of basically everything, stuff that impacts from person to person has the most variables to contend with, but it doesn't stop it being comforting when someone whose opinion and experiences you trust and respect vouches for something that's worrying you, even if they're also the source of the initial suggestion.
That makes him pause again, for a little while. Honestly, this is just a very drawn out conversation in general. ] I don't know if I can... Handle that either. [ Read: 'I really, really don't want to run the risk of making things worse.' ]
That makes him pause again, for a little while. Honestly, this is just a very drawn out conversation in general. ] I don't know if I can... Handle that either. [ Read: 'I really, really don't want to run the risk of making things worse.' ]
Relax, I'm really good at knowing where the edge is between mildly uncomfortable and actually painful. [ And letting go of his arm with a shrug. ] Personally, I find breaking the bones is most effective, but that can be hard and dislocating a joint will generally work reasonably well.
[ She really dislikes this entire scenario, basically. She constantly feels like she's overthinking it or underthinking it or not getting it right, and she knows intellectually this is actually going somewhat decently - he doesn't have to accept this suggestion, it's a big and good step just to have him talk to her this openly. Or this close to openly. It's just really hard with this much heavy negativity in the air to feel like she's actually doing well. ]
It's up to you, what you think you can or can't handle. [ A pause of her own, because this really is a drawn out conversation in terms of them needing to stop and think over what they're going to say or consider what was just said. ] I'm going to find a way to help you. As many options as it takes. And one of them will work, and it will get better.
It's up to you, what you think you can or can't handle. [ A pause of her own, because this really is a drawn out conversation in terms of them needing to stop and think over what they're going to say or consider what was just said. ] I'm going to find a way to help you. As many options as it takes. And one of them will work, and it will get better.
[ He's quiet, yet again, after she's finished speaking. He's taking time to run everything around in his head - numbers, equations, variables, past attempts tempered with the future attempts and the faith he has in her to never ever try and hurt him deliberately. Considering the methods he's been employing to handle things, and moving with them onto a proposed method, and then that held up against the original, the source of the problem, to see how it compares.
So it takes him a while, but he does reply. It's not the end of the conversation just yet. ] We can try it.
But you don't have to do that. I mean... [ What do you mean, Tony? ] I... Appreciate the help, but sometimes things can't... [ Maybe he doesn't know what he means. ]
So it takes him a while, but he does reply. It's not the end of the conversation just yet. ] We can try it.
But you don't have to do that. I mean... [ What do you mean, Tony? ] I... Appreciate the help, but sometimes things can't... [ Maybe he doesn't know what he means. ]
i just spent way too long poking and prodding at my elbow and i'm still making it up shhhh
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motherofnemesis
2013-03-27 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I generally hit just above the elbow - if you have the position right - [ and holding her own arm and twisting it so she can indicate the spot ] and enough force behind it, that tends to crack the bone. If you go for the elbow itself, you're more likely to snap the joint.
I wouldn't know if you can put it back together, I'm generally not on that side of it.
I wouldn't know if you can put it back together, I'm generally not on that side of it.
it's ok i'm here to help remind you should you ever consider it again
motherofnemesis
2013-03-27 04:58 pm (UTC)(link)
[ She can wait. She's good at waiting, as this conversation has made very clear. It's an ability learned on stakeouts and with her bond and his quiet evasion and in prison, and here it's serving her in very good stead. She can wait even when the results aren't worth it, and in this case they are very very worth it.
She doesn't really visibly react to him agreeing, because that's not out of the woods yet. It's a chance at helping him, but one that she can't be certain will help. She won't start feeling better about the whole affair until she knows one way or another, can be positive that he's feeling better, that he can handle this more easily. Her ultimate goal is to make it so that he's able to handle everything by himself, without help, and not need her help at any point. Not because she doesn't want to be here, but because more than anyone she knows the impermanence of things. People die, or are forced out of your life, and she wants to know that no matter what he will be okay. ]
I know I don't have to. [ It would be peremptory if she wasn't so carefully moderating how she says things, because of course she doesn't have to. She doesn't have to do anything. ] I want to do what I can. I know not everything can be fixed. But most things can be improved.
She doesn't really visibly react to him agreeing, because that's not out of the woods yet. It's a chance at helping him, but one that she can't be certain will help. She won't start feeling better about the whole affair until she knows one way or another, can be positive that he's feeling better, that he can handle this more easily. Her ultimate goal is to make it so that he's able to handle everything by himself, without help, and not need her help at any point. Not because she doesn't want to be here, but because more than anyone she knows the impermanence of things. People die, or are forced out of your life, and she wants to know that no matter what he will be okay. ]
I know I don't have to. [ It would be peremptory if she wasn't so carefully moderating how she says things, because of course she doesn't have to. She doesn't have to do anything. ] I want to do what I can. I know not everything can be fixed. But most things can be improved.
It's generally easier to break things than fix them. Takes a special kind of sophisticated mind to fix things. [ is he talking about himself? what? i couldn't imagi-- yeah no he's totally talking about himself. ] So we're covering all the basic manhandling, right? What else do people grab?
[ At least Tony doesn't tend to go for quiet, unobtrusive evasion so much as 'Hey! Look over here! Look! I'm avoiding the subject!' kind of evasion. That probably helps a little bit with things.
He would argue that actually right now he doesn't need help either because he's totally capable of functioning like this, he's functioned like this for years, and in other, similar states for different reasons for even longer. He'd argue that, but it would be sort of half-assed, because it's blatantly incorrect and he doesn't have the energy to put into any real defensiveness right now. ]
Some things, anyway. Hard not to improve on all this, I guess.
He would argue that actually right now he doesn't need help either because he's totally capable of functioning like this, he's functioned like this for years, and in other, similar states for different reasons for even longer. He'd argue that, but it would be sort of half-assed, because it's blatantly incorrect and he doesn't have the energy to put into any real defensiveness right now. ]
Some things, anyway. Hard not to improve on all this, I guess.
Yeah, it does. [ He may be talking about himself but she's just going to apply that statement to herself too because she can. ] What don't they grab? What do you want to learn.
stop reconvincing yourself you know that's a bad idea
motherofnemesis
2013-03-28 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
[ It definitely seriously helps. He may think it's distracting, but really it's just alerting her to the fact that there is a problem if she hasn't already noticed. It makes her a lot more confident in knowing that if there's a problem, she'll realize it sooner rather than later.
As for that, there's a difference between functioning and living and yeah, exactly, it's blatantly incorrect. She would be very unimpressed with that particular argument. ]
The only things that can't be improved are the things outside your control. Circumstances, surroundings. If you do want to try, obviously I'm willing to help.
As for that, there's a difference between functioning and living and yeah, exactly, it's blatantly incorrect. She would be very unimpressed with that particular argument. ]
The only things that can't be improved are the things outside your control. Circumstances, surroundings. If you do want to try, obviously I'm willing to help.
[ Well he was talking in general but the sophisticated part can be about them both. He wouldn't object to that. ] I wanna knowww... Hm. Can you show me - [ as his brain helpfully supplies 'something familiar about the dangers like me', which doesn't work, but whatever. ] What if they've got your hands tied up?
[ Yeah, the day he learns that all that avoidance actually clues her in to things more than not, he'll... probably not actually be able to stop doing it, but he'll be annoyed with himself when he notices that he is.
Reasons he does actually keep some of his thoughts internal. ]
How would - how would we do it?
Reasons he does actually keep some of his thoughts internal. ]
How would - how would we do it?
'do i know anything about this nope okay doesn't matter'
motherofnemesis
2013-03-28 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
[ Super sophisticated brains, aw yeah. ] Well, that depends a lot on how many there are, what your hands are tied with, but mostly for that you're going to want to know how to kick things really hard. There's a couple things you can do if they grab you by your tied hands, too.
[ She doesn't intend on ever mentioning that to him. It seems like a not great idea, because she's pretty sure he'd at least try to stop and that would get frustrating fast. She happens to think it's a good thing, her being able to read things from him.
And there's the million dollar question, isn't it. She's come up with a few options and discarded them in her head, trying to determine what would work best, what's the most likely to function as a means of helping. ]
Whatever you think would work best. I don't want to - you know best what would be most likely to cause more problems than the obvious.
And there's the million dollar question, isn't it. She's come up with a few options and discarded them in her head, trying to determine what would work best, what's the most likely to function as a means of helping. ]
Whatever you think would work best. I don't want to - you know best what would be most likely to cause more problems than the obvious.
[ What she's saying is true, but for reasons she's not entirely privy to, it's entirely implausible. He's not even to the point yet where he can consider a handful of scenarios and pick which one is least damaging and most likely to work - all he'll do is get bogged down in the scenarios.
So when he looks at her, again, finally, it's not like he did when she first voiced the idea but more like a visible placing of his trust in her expertise here. It's very thin, tentative, tightrope walking trust, with a thick, dense cloud of 'But I'll need so much help, I don't know how to do this.' surrounding it.
And this is effectively what he was hiding from her. This brokenness, this fear, all of this anxiety and inefficiency. She managed to wade through the rest of everything else and now he's more or less one hundred percent open to her, and while that should be terrifying, all he's feeling is a little numb. Like it'll hit later, but right now while it's happening that would be too much to handle. Self-defense mechanisms - Tony's built out of the things. ]
I can't - think... of them. I just loop in the memories, it doesn't ever - it doesn't go that well. [ oh well nice idea maybe some other time ] I don't care how we... - as long as there's no water. We can't start with water.
So when he looks at her, again, finally, it's not like he did when she first voiced the idea but more like a visible placing of his trust in her expertise here. It's very thin, tentative, tightrope walking trust, with a thick, dense cloud of 'But I'll need so much help, I don't know how to do this.' surrounding it.
And this is effectively what he was hiding from her. This brokenness, this fear, all of this anxiety and inefficiency. She managed to wade through the rest of everything else and now he's more or less one hundred percent open to her, and while that should be terrifying, all he's feeling is a little numb. Like it'll hit later, but right now while it's happening that would be too much to handle. Self-defense mechanisms - Tony's built out of the things. ]
I can't - think... of them. I just loop in the memories, it doesn't ever - it doesn't go that well. [ oh well nice idea maybe some other time ] I don't care how we... - as long as there's no water. We can't start with water.
Yes, because I don't know how much you dislike them. Which is why I make them, so you can complain about it. [ She's a little exasperated, true, but it's nothing new between them. In fact, Pepper's leaning closer so he can look at what she does as though it's on purpose. It's nothing significant, not really; a few emails, things that could be seen to at another time. She sometimes likes to be there with him, together in that silence and comfortable, as if there's something completely normal about who they are and what they're doing.
She tilts her head, fingers covering the screen as she drops her other hand lightly atop his thigh. A smile stretches her mouth, and she looks at him. ]
But all of that can wait for now. I like this better. Don't you?
She tilts her head, fingers covering the screen as she drops her other hand lightly atop his thigh. A smile stretches her mouth, and she looks at him. ]
But all of that can wait for now. I like this better. Don't you?
the worst is when i wiki it to hell and still have to make it up
motherofnemesis
2013-03-29 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
[ Hmmm. ] The small things, generally. For instance, how to break someone's nose in a way that is highly likely to kill them. The points in the arm that hurt like hell when you poke them. How to kick someone in the shin so that it doesn't hurt you but they feel it for weeks. [ Shrug. And asking her to pick based on what's saved her life wouldn't really work either, because she has a lot of things that have saved her life. ] The throws are the most fun, really.
[ It's a lot of openness indeed, but it's what she was asking for and this - she knows this. The brokenness, the fear, she knows it inside out. It's almost reassuring in its familiarity, and that sounds bad but it's more that all the evasion and the refusal she didn't know what to do with but she knows a lot more about how to handle this, right now.
Well, somewhat more. She's still not anywhere near certain but her calm and surety is a little less faked now. ]
No water, no, I don't think that would really help. It's okay, you don't need to think about it. I'll walk you through it. [ A pause, giving him a moment, and then she reaches out and strokes her thumb along the back of one of his hands, a calming gesture hopefully. ] The first step is somewhere you feel safe and in control. The shop, I'd guess. Maybe your bedroom?
Well, somewhat more. She's still not anywhere near certain but her calm and surety is a little less faked now. ]
No water, no, I don't think that would really help. It's okay, you don't need to think about it. I'll walk you through it. [ A pause, giving him a moment, and then she reaches out and strokes her thumb along the back of one of his hands, a calming gesture hopefully. ] The first step is somewhere you feel safe and in control. The shop, I'd guess. Maybe your bedroom?
[ It's sad that no aspects of this conversation are ringing 'normal people don't say these things' alarm bells, for either of them. ] Yeah, the throws are a blast. Total ball there. Let's throw a ball. So, okay, hit me with another throw, then.
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